Friday, December 15, 2017
धर्म, श्रध्दा व मानवाचे उन्नयन
Thursday, October 8, 2009
Dr Ambedkar—A Conscience-keeper of Gandhiji
Wednesday 19 August 2009, by Shyam Chand
Dr Ambedkar was against hero worship. But the Dalits worship him as a liberator, a social reformer and a great crusader who fought for their political rights. Dalits, who have read Dr. Ambedkar and Gandhiji, not only equally revered Gandhiji but regard them like two streams that meet at the confluence to merge with each other.
It takes quite long to understand the Hindu social system and its vexing corpus. After matriculation Gandhiji went to
In the beginning the Indian National Congress used to hold meetings of the Social Congress alongside the Congress sessions. When Tilak became the President of the Congress party, his followers opposed the holding of the meeting of the Social Congress. In 1919-20, Gandhiji revived the Social Congress to transform it as an instrument of social and political change. The more Gandhiji studied the social system, the more he turned out to be a social reformer. Dr Ambedkar described Manu as the originator and progenitor of the caste system and wrote volumes on him. Gandhiji dismissed Manu in one sentence: ‘We do not know that a Rishi named Manu ever lived.’ (Arun Shorie in Hinduism)
To Dr Ambedkar, untouchability was a sin against humanity. Gandhiji said: If the Indians have become the pariahs of the Empire, it is retributive justice meted out to us by a just God. Should we Hindus not wash our blood-stained hands before we ask the English wash theirs? ...........so long Hindus wishfully regard untouchability as a part of their religion, so long Swaraj is impossible.
When Gandhiji said ‘God is Truth’, he was demolishing the very theory of two levels of truth. According to the youthful Arun Shourie (Hinduism), The thesis of two levels of truth became a handy instrument in the hands of ideologists......it ended up introducing double think into the vexy heart of corpus..... it became a justification for differing moral codes. One code for Aryans, and another for non-Aryans.......one set of punishment for the crime commited by individuals from one caste, another set of punishment for the same crime commited by individuals from another caste. And so on.
Ancient literature, according to Dr Ambedkar, gives sustenance to the Hindu social system which is described as ‘divinely ordained’. Gandhiji does not accept the so-called religious texts as Dharma Shastras. For him, they are the works of poets and nothing else. He does not accept their spiritual authority. ‘I would reject all the spiritual authority if it is in conflict with sober reason or the dictates of the heart.’ ‘Blind worship of authority is a sign of weakness of mind.’ He further says:
I accept no authority or no Shastra as infallible guide. Hinduism is not a codified religion. We have in Hinduism hundreds and thousands of books whose names we do not even know which go under the short name of Shastras. Whatever falls from truth must be rejected, no matter where it comes from........
Moreover, these so-called ‘sacred texts’, according to him, have been passed on from generation to generation by rot. Through centuries these texts have undergone interpolations, mutations, distortions and concatenations in retrospect.
Lastly Gandhiji suggested that ‘we bring out a revised edition of scriptures’.
The certainity that the whole mass of Hindus and persons accepted as religious leaders will not accept the validity of such authority need not interfere with sacred enterprise. Work done in the long run will assuredly help those who are badly in need of such assistance.
Orthodox Hindus turned against Gandhiji.
In the beginning of 1925 a number of merchants of Mumbai, among who were included the leading public men, convened a meeting of orthodox Hindus. Almost every speaker denounced what they called the heresies of Gandhiji in respect of untouchability and declared that the Hindu religion was in danger at his hands. (Professor G.S. Ghurya, Caste and Race in
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DR AMBEDKAR was a strong advocate of universal suffrage, though Churchill had told him that adults franchise was not a practical proposition. Dr Ambedkar did not accept that only those, ‘who could be expected to make intelligent use of it’, be given the right to vote. He said that ‘the exercise of vote was itself an education’.
The Dalits criticise Gandhiji for his fast unto death over separate electorate. After signing the Poona Pact, Dr Ambedkar said: There was before me the duty which I owed as a part of humanity to save Gandhi from sure death. There was before me the problem of saving for the untouchables the political rights which the (British) Prime Minister had given them.
The Poona Pact was not a bad bargain. Dr Ambedkar got reserved seats for the Scheduled Castes both in the State Assemblies and Lok Sabha and their right to contest from any general seat. Under the separate electorate the majority community among the Dalits would have grabbed all the reserved seats and this arrangement would have collapsed before now under protests of the minority communities among them.
The Resolution on Fundamental Rights and Economic Changes was drafted by Gandhiji for the Karachi Congress in 1931 and it included the right to adult suffrage, free primary education and freedom from serfdom. Dr Ambedkar had also been fighting for these rights.
Dr Ambedkar apprehended some apposition from orthodox elements in the Congress party with regard to reservation to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. He approached Gandhiji through somebody on the eve of introduction of that bill. Gandhiji contacted, on phone, all important MPs and impressed upon them the urgency of supporting the Bill.
Dr Ambedkar aspired for a casteless society based on social union. For a casteless society intermarriage was imperitive. ‘Nothing else will serve as solvent of caste...... Fusion of blood alone can create feeling of being kith and kin. Without this feeling of being kindered caste cannot vanish,’ he said. Was Gandhiji fascinated by Sanatana Dharma? Or was it a calculated option? At that time Hindus were divided between Sanatana Dharma, Arya Samaj, Hindu Mahasabha and later the RSS. Arya Samaj, Hindu Mahasabha and RSS were against Muslims. Sanatana Dharma had reconciled, compromised and cooperated with Islam over centuries. For Hindu-Muslim unity, to be a Sanatani was a good policy.
But his war on the evil of untouchability forced him to fight the obnoxious caste system so that the Dalits were not alienated from the Hindu society. He discarded Varnashram based on birth. He encouraged intercaste marriage. Here again he opposed Manu. He recommended Pratiloma marriage, marriage between a high-caste woman and a low-caste man, as against Manu’s Anuloma marriage, marriage between a high-caste man and a low-caste woman. Gandhiji wrote to Dr Ambedkar: ‘At the end of the chapter, I hope that we shall all find ourselves in the same camp.’
Gandhiji’s son was married to a Brahmin girl. Dr Ambedkar married a Brahmin girl, Dr Savita Kabir. That was after the assassination of the Mahatma. When Dr Ambedkar saw Pyare Lal standing before the present Khadi Bhandar, Connaught Place, he got down from the car, went up to him and said: ‘Had Bapu been alive, he would have blessed our marriage. We did not understand him.’
Had Gandhiji been alive, Dr Ambedkar would not have floated the Republican Party in 1952. After Gandhiji’s assassination there was no person to campaign for social reforms and fight for the rights of Dalits. His defeat at the hustings gave a rude shock to the Dalits. Dr Ambedkar had a strong sense of history, including the economic history of
On September 6, 1954 speaking in the Rajya Sabha, Dr Ambedkar paid Gandhiji the highest tribute when he said: ‘All of us (that is, including Ambedkar himself—S.C.) knew that the Dalits were the nearest and dearest to him.’
The author is a former Minister of Haryana.
The beauty of compromise
By: Ramachandra Guha
Over the past few decades, the nation states of Southasia have been home to some of the most bitter and costly conflicts of the modern world. Subaltern classes have resisted the hegemony of the elite; areas on the periphery have protested exploitation by the centre. To class and geography have been added the fault lines of language, caste, religion and ethnicity.
No region of the world – not even the fabled Balkans – has witnessed a greater variety of conflicts. Southasians are an expressive people, and so they have expressed their various resentments in an appropriate diversity of ways: through electing legislators of their choosing; through court petitions and other legal mechanisms; through marches, gheraos, dharnas, hunger strikes and other forms of non-violent protest; through the torching of government buildings; and through outright armed rebellion. The record of our nation states in dealing with these conflicts is decidedly mixed. Some conflicts, which once threatened to tear a nation apart, have been, in the end, resolved. Other conflicts have persisted for decades, with the animosities between the contending parties deepening with every passing year.
From this vast repertoire of experience within Southasia, this essay will foreground some of the more intractable of these conflicts: among others, the Kashmir dispute and the Naga insurgency in
In search of an answer, let me first turn to some forgotten episodes in the career of a man who might be considered the paradigmatic Southasian, Jayaprakash Narayan, or ‘J P’. He was an Indian patriot, but he retained close links with the republican struggle in
Missed opportunities
Within India, J P is celebrated for his role in two major movements: the Quit India struggle of 1942, and the ‘Indira Hatao’ movement of 1974-5. During Quit India, J P achieved countrywide renown for his daring escape from Hazaribagh jail, after which he spent more than a year underground, eluding the colonial police. The movement of 1974-5 was, of course, led and directed by him. Starting in his native
Both the upheavals saw J P in an uncompromising mode. In 1942, he was a charismatic young leftist, who sought to throw the British out and rebuild
Let’s begin with
Bucking the jingoist trend, two men of conspicuous independence supported Nehru’s idea, despite being, on other matters, fierce critics of the prime minister’s policies. One was C Rajagopalachari, the first Indian Governor-General of
Nehru died in May 1964; the peace initiative died with him. The next year, Sheikh Abdullah was put behind bars once again. In June 1966, J P wrote an extraordinary letter to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, asking that the Sheikh be freed in time for the next elections. “[To] hold a general election in Kashmir with Sheikh Abdullah in prison,” remarked J P, “is like the British ordering an election in
I cannot see what other device will be left to
This letter received a brief, non-committal reply from Mrs Gandhi. It took another eight years for her to allow the Sheikh to re-enter politics. When Sheikh Abdullah was made chief minister of Jammu & Kashmir in February 1975, J P welcomed the move (despite being, by then, a bitter opponent of Mrs Gandhi). But the concession itself was perhaps eight years too late. For by then the Sheikh had become reconciled to subservience to
The uncompromising west
Let me now move away from
The east of Pakistan had begun to be distanced from the west from the very beginning, when, on his first visit to Dhaka, the governor-general of Pakistan, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, told his Bengali audience that they would have to take to Urdu sooner rather than later, because “the state language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no other language. Anyone who tries to mislead you is really the enemy of
The Awami League’s platform included a federal constitution, in which each wing would manage its social, political and economic affairs, with only defence and foreign relations in the hands of the Centre. Keeping in mind the significant revenue from jute exports, the Awami League also proposed that each wing would get to spend the foreign exchange it earned. The proposals to reform the Constitution were deemed unacceptable by the generals and politicians of
Rather than honour the democratic mandate and invite Sheikh Mujib to take office, Yahya Khan postponed the convening of the National Assembly, and in this he was encouraged and abetted by Bhutto. The response was a general strike in all of
Would
Linguistic anxiety
As it happens, the language problem is one issue that the
Fifty years later, it is possible to deem the creation of linguistic states a relative success, despite the occasional hiccup. Contrary to the fears of the Congress leadership, the existence of these states has not threatened the unity of
The experience of
The protests were disregarded. The insecurity of the Tamils was intensified by the
Many Tamils still kept their faith in the spirit of compromise. However, two events in the early 1980s decidedly put down hopes of a peaceful, democratic reconciliation of the linguistic question. The first was the burning, by the Sri Lankan army, of the great Tamil library in
The Northeast’s J P
Now we will return from
In 1964, after a long decade of civil war, a ceasefire was declared between the NNC and the Indian government. A three-member ‘peace mission’ was formed, consisting of the Anglican missionary Michael Scott, the Gandhian nationalist B P Chaliha, and Jayaprakash Narayan. Sadly, the mission collapsed within a year, due to inflexibility on both sides, and the rebels returned to the jungle. It was at this time that J P wrote an extraordinary if still little-known booklet in Hindi, based on a speech he delivered in
“In the history of every nation,” began J P, “there have been disagreements among the servants and leaders of the nation. Where democracy prevails, these disagreements are discussed and resolved by democratic means; but where democracy is absent, they are resolved by the use of violence.” However, history teaches us that violence begets counter-violence and, eventually, violence against one’s own comrades. Thus, “when disputes arise, past alliances and friendships are forgotten, and allegations of betrayal, traitorous behaviour, etc are levied on one’s opponents.”
J P proceeded to recount the history of the civil war in Nagaland – the recourse to the gun of one side, the reaction of the other, and the brutalities committed by both. Then, in the spirit of his master, Gandhi, he asked each party to recognise and respect the finest traditions of the other. First, he told the Nagas that, among the nations of Asia,
Narayan recognised the distinctiveness of Naga cultural traditions. While both East and
Towards the end of his lecture, J P turned to educating his
Pride and prestige
The conflicts of
One notable aspect of the transition in
Looking over to
One might also profit from a look at the recent history of
Dam compromise
To return to Southasia, and to move on from political conflicts to social ones, consider the controversy over the Sardar Sarovar dam in central
Between 1989 and 1995, the NBA organised a series of satyagrahas to stop construction of the dam. Their struggle won wide appreciation, both for its principled commitment to non-violence and for its ability to mobilise peasants and Adivasis. By now, several scientific studies had been published calling into question the viability of large dams. These studies adduced environmental arguments, such as the submergence of scarce forests and wildlife; economic arguments, such as the fact that sedimentation rates and soil salinity had greatly diminished the financial returns from such projects; and social arguments, namely the utter despair and demoralisation of the communities that the dams render homeless.
The struggle and the science notwithstanding, the construction of the Sardar Sarovar dam proceeded. In 1995, a group of engineers based in Pune advocated a compromise solution. Given that the dam had already come up to a height of about 260 feet, clearly it could not be stopped. But its negative effects could be minimised. The Pune engineers were proposing a model of a dam smaller than that originally envisaged. The reduction in height would greatly reduce the area to be submerged, yet retain much of the benefits that were to accrue in power and irrigation. The drought-prone regions of
The compromise formula was rejected both by the
In retrospect, it is unfortunate that the NBA did not accept the lowered-height proposal. Had the Andolan advocated this alternative energetically, it is just possible that public opinion would have veered more strongly in their favour. The Supreme Court, before whom an appeal was pending, might have given a more favourable verdict. Confronted with the stark alternative of continuing with dam construction as planned and putting an end to the project, it was expected that the court would be inclined to the former course, for many thousands of crores of public money had already been spent on the project. If the court had been adequately alerted to the compromise solution, which would still bring water to the most deprived parts of
Diasporic desires
The case of Sardar Sarovar forcefully brings home the need for social movements to be flexible in their strategies. What seems feasible and plausible at the start may no longer be so during year five or year ten. (As John Maynard Keynes liked to say, “When the facts change, I change my mind.”) It is past time that two of the most enduring oppositional political movements in Southasia change their approaches and strategies. To be more specific: the Naga people stand enormously to gain if their leaders abandon their dream of a sovereign homeland and agree to be part of the
The civil war in Nagaland has gone on, episodically, for 50 years now. The struggle for a Tamil Eelam is almost as old. In the meantime, thousands of lives have been lost, thousands of families have been broken. But the dream of an independent homeland seems as distant as ever. Should not the rebels now sue for peace, peace with dignity and honour?
That last caveat is crucial – ‘with dignity and honour’. To get the rebels to drop the sovereignty demand will require handsome gestures. As the veteran journalist George Verghese has suggested, the Nagas could have recognition of their distinctive status indicated on their passports – not ‘Indian’, but ‘Naga Indian’. Likewise,
Were gestures like this forthcoming, would the Naga and Tamil rebels give up their arms and, as it were, join the national mainstream? One cannot be so naïve as to think this very likely. There is the issue of pride: having fought so long for a certain goal, it cannot be let go of easily, or at all. There is also the issue of sacrifice: having lost so many lives in the cause, would it be fair to the memory of the martyrs to settle for less than what they gave their lives for? Sentiments such as these are widespread both among the leadership of the National Socialist Council of Nagalim (IM), the leading insurgent group in Nagaland, and of the LTTE, who have for some time now been the main – indeed, unchallenged – representatives of the Sri Lankan Tamil cause.
In both the Naga and the Tamil cases, compromise is also made more difficult by the desires of the diasporic community. Nagas in exile and Tamils in exile are even more emphatic in their demands for complete independence. Since they pay for the guns, their voice carries much weight. This is a depressingly familiar story, the story of the expatriate who is more unyielding than those who live on the ground.
The Nagas and the Tamils share certain attributes. They both have a very strong sense of identity, and the pride that goes along with it. Both communities have a better-than-average acquaintance with English, the language of professional advancement in the global economy. As compared with other Southasian cultures, they practice less gender discrimination – here (whether in the Indian Northeast, or the Sri Lankan north and east) many women assume leadership roles as teachers, doctors, entrepreneurs and guerrilla fighters. And if one is able to make the last of these professions redundant, there will be much greater scope for the others. Were this generation of Nagas and the Sri Lankan Tamils to put down their weapons, the next generation would reap untold benefits. They would be part of a larger economy in which, due to their communitarian pride and legacy of professionalism, they would enjoy advantages that other Indian or Sri Lankan communities do not.
The leader-in-command
The primary hurdle in the way of a successful resolution of the Naga and Tamil issues is the burden of history. Both sides to both these conflicts have much to complain about. The Jaffna Tamils cannot forget the burning of the great library or the pogrom of 1983; the Sinhalas will remember the assassination of their leaders and the bombs that explode and kill innocents in markets. The Nagas recall the promises made and betrayed by the Indian state down through the years; the Indian state remembers only the Nagas seeking Chinese help and the killing of moderates. Looking back to the past, one sees only crimes committed by the other party, crimes real as well as imagined. It is necessary for the contending parties to look to the future instead, to think of the fate of the generations to come. Do today’s rebels want the youth of today, too, to live a life of uncertainty and instability, in and by the shadow of the gun? When is enough enough, and a compromise possible?
History is a burden in another way too. In the thick of the rebellion, insurgency leaders are prone to rhetorical excess, to make commitments and promises that make compromise at a later stage difficult. Thus, the LTTE has often said that it will hold out for nothing less than an independent nation, the Tamil Eelam. The NSCN has likewise stood for an independent Nagalim; to consist of the Naga-speaking areas of Manipur, Arunachal Pradesh and
These constraints and impediments are real and serious. But they must be overcome if the real and substantial benefits that are to flow to the Nagas and Tamils through a successful resolution of the two conflicts are to be arrived at. For the Nagas and Tamils, especially, the potential gains from giving up the gun are massive indeed. The Indian Constitution does allow for a great degree of devolution. If, as Jayaprakash Narayan told the Nagas long ago, they can run their own economy and promote their own culture, then why does it matter that they do not have their nation and their own flag? A deeper federalism can also handily serve the aspirations of the Sri Lankan Tamils. With the attributes that the Nagas and the Tamils share, they stand to gain enormously from the acceptance of an honourable place within the constitutional framework of
It is, of course, not just the Naga and Tamil peoples who have virtues and traits in common. So do their acknowledged leaders. The main Naga separatist leader, T Muivah, and the Tamil Tiger supremo, Velupillai Prabhakaran, are both men of extraordinary energy and drive. During the course of lives dedicated to the cause, they have nurtured the strengths and talents of countless cadres and followers. The Naga struggle is inconceivable without Muivah; so, too, the Tamil struggle without Prabhakaran. In the past, their charisma and determination have played a crucial part in the making and deepening of the struggle. Can that same charisma and determination now play their part in forging a compromise? For, if anyone can persuade the Tamils to give up the gun, it is Prabhakaran. If anyone can charm the Nagas into accepting the Indian Constitution, it is Muivah.
These two leaders have a legitimacy and popular appeal denied to their colleagues, and possibly also to their successors. While they are alive and in command, the state in
Back in 1966, when the state was strong and the rebels weak, the Indian government refused to rehabilitate Sheikh Abdullah. What followed has been a continuously violent and unstable
The uncompromised Gandhi
It is entirely likely that the proposals put forward here for a spirit of compromise from the state and the insurgents will be met with scorn and derision, not just from within the Naga and the Tamil fold, but also from scholars and analysts engaged with these issues. But then, as the American critic Lionel Trilling noted long ago, intellectuals have always tended to embrace an ‘adversary culture’: standing against the state, against the market, against the establishment – in fact, against anything and everything but themselves. Conciliation and compromise does not come naturally to intellectuals, whose armchairs tend to be removed from the zones of conflict and who do not suffer the fallout of continuous, decades-long fighting.
On the other hand, conciliation and compromise were an integral part of the vocabulary and political repertoire of a man to whom I owe the title of this essay, the man whom I can, uncontroversially, refer to as the greatest Southasian of them all, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Gandhi knew when to begin a movement, but also when to call it off; when to challenge an opponent, but also when to talk to and seek to understand the adversary. The only thing he was uncompromising on was the use of non-violence.
In many ways, Gandhi was the arch-reconciler, the builder of bridges – bridges between Hindus and Muslims, between
Among the all-pervading but little recognised of Gandhi’s successes was the forging of a stable, harmonious and even affectionate relationship between the
That the citizens of India today do not ‘hate’ the English is owed largely – one might even say entirely – to Gandhi. His closest friend was an Englishman, Charles Freer Andrews. When Andrews died, in 1940, Gandhi wrote that while the numerous misdeeds of the English would be forgotten,
not one of the heroic deeds of Andrews will be forgotten as long as
In the six decades since the Raj ended, the ‘best Englishmen and the best Indians’ have met regularly and amicably, to their mutual advantage. A spirit of conciliation helped
While the India-England rapprochement was admittedly of a different kind, can there be a time when the same can, or will, be said of Nagas and the people of the heartland of
The Naga and Tamil struggles are founded on the principle of identity. These two peoples have a strong sense of who they are and what unites them, this defined by a shared territory, religion, culture and language. It is the denial, both perceived and real, of this identity by the nation-state establishment and its policies that explain the origin and persistence of the secessionist movement. The key to a solution lies in converting the currency of identity into the currency of interest. The groups that are currently protesting about threats to their identity must be provided with a stake in power and decision-making. That is how, for example, the Solidarity generation in
One may take heart from the history of Tamil Nadu and Mizoram, or study the transformation currently underway in
The examples from Tamil Nadu, Mizoram and
In a fine essay on the history of political moderation in the Western world, the historian Robert M Calhoon suggests that “moderates are made not born.” They are “creatures of the moment, and of circumstance, who move away from antagonistic stances and toward [the] middle ground to achieve a goal or serve a purpose through a wider political advocacy and association.” This definition works well in explaining the moves away from extremism of those great rebels Nelson Mandela and Mahatma Gandhi – or, indeed, of the ending of repression by their respective rivals, the apartheid regime and the British Raj. Calhoon also writes, “in our own time, moderation rebukes the corrosive partisanship from the Right or the Left.” In our own region, ‘Right and Left’ may be better represented as Rebel and State. It is the task of the moderate, and of moderation, to find common ground between these two actors, thus to replace a regime of suspicion and violence with one based on trust and cooperation.
That said, those who advocate moderation – including this writer – live more in hope than expectation. Calhoon quotes a passage from Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics, where the Greek sage notes that “it is no easy task to find the middle.” Closer to home, this sentiment was echoed by C Rajagopalachari, a close follower and associate of Gandhi, when he wrote to a Quaker friend that “those who are born to reconcile seem to have an unending task in this world.” If not in the whole world, then at least in Southasia, this region that has been so deeply marked by conflict and antagonism between castes, between Hindus and Muslims, between Sinhala-speakers and Tamil-speakers, between the massed armies of its nation states.
It is precisely because our region is such a cauldron of conflict that a special responsibility devolves on the writer and intellectual, who has an obligation to the truth, and additionally to democracy and pluralism. For the signal lesson of the 20th century is that dictatorships of both left and right are equally inimical to human dignity and well-being. Thus, as part of their calling, writers must stand consistently for the right to freely elect one’s leaders, the right to seek a place of residence and company of one’s choosing, the right to speak the language of one’s choice and practice the faith of one’s belief (which may be no faith at all).
These responsibilities are onerous enough, but for the Southasian writer and intellectual there are other obligations still. Because our recent history has been so bloody and divisive, the Southasian writer and intellectual must always be in search of paths that might make our future less bloody and less divisive. For this, he or she should seek, always, to moderate social and political conflicts, rather than to intensify or accelerate them. The extreme positions are well represented and passionately articulated in any case. Rather than take sides on behalf of one caste against another, one religion against another, one nation against another, or to throw oneself in alignment with the state or to be always against the state, the writer and intellectual needs to keep away from an identification with one party to a dispute. Rather, he or she must try to interpret and reconcile opposing positions, to make each side see the truth in the other, thus to urge each party to move beyond dogmatism and self-justification, and towards acknowledging and embracing the beauty of compromise.
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This essay is the full text of the inaugural Himal Annual Lecture, delivered by Ramachandra Guha on 4 December 2007, in
Ramachandra Guha is a Bangalore-based writer and historian.
Source : http://www.himalmag.com/The-beauty-of-compromise_nw2107.html
Himal Southasian magazine, Feb 2008